<![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had - Deadspin Comments]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had - Deadspin Comments]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Trackback

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> I've been a gym rat for a long time. I also happen to know a bit about physical chemistry. And I spend almost a third of my life living in the Tampa Bay, Florida, aka JockLand, and the juice down there, believe me, is loose. Your average body-builder could, without formal schooling (save perhaps a little help with remedial written English) slap together a PhD-level dissertation in applied chemistry in an evening.

(I'm also a certified trainer. Certifiable, too, but that's another story...).

Here's the thing about HGH & an awful lot of physical therapists & professional trainers who frown on 'roids will back me here:

Used sparingly & for limited periods of time, it will help injury recovery times, particularly for ligamant & joint-based injuries. It will not, on its own, increase strength, speed, or penis size. Side-effect profile for limited use is low--much lower then the junk the FDA feeds hyperactive children. Piggy-backed with steroids, HGH WILL have a synergistic effect--the HGH will increase muscle size while the 'roids will increase density & recovery time.

But on its own, used for a limited time for a specific puprose, HGH may be illegal, but it's probably beneficial, especially for folks recovering from traumatic tendon, ligamanet & bone injuries.

I haven't lost faith in #24. I just hope he doesn't lose faith in himself. Again.

And, yeah. Bonds is a world-class putz. Best player in the game even before he got juiced. Best player I ever SAW. That's what I find so infuriating. A couple guys do one or two things better then he does & he goes on his psychotic vendetta steroid surge.

Sad.

Ankiel, I strongly suspect, was just trying to help his pitching arm heal. And frankly, speaking as someone who knows how easy it is to procure this stuff without leaving a paper trail, I gotta ask why he would go to the trouble of getting prescriptions if he thought he was doing something wrong. He was still, at the time, kind of a kid (23-24). Young, dumb & in the wrong. But I inhaled a few times in college & dropped acid 3 or 4 times & that's illegal, too. Definitely not performance-enhancing, mind you...

Anyway, Rick's still the man.

-Graham

sinjinthule

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]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Wow-you must be a writer or something--Bravo!

GiselleBeardchen

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]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @DeadTeddy8 (David de Sportszilla): I'm not talking about historical revisitation or revisionism, I'm talking about the perception at the time. Before 1999, Bonds was not thought of as the best player of his generation. The vast majority of people considered Griffey for that. People can rehash the numbers, point to MVP's, whatever. That doesn't rewrite history of what people's perceptions were 8 years ago. And no amount of rehashing or reexamination will suddenly create a time machine to go back to 1999 and convince people of how they felt then.

My point is, it doesn't matter to people in 1998 what people in 2007 think or know. In 20 years, if people try to come up with stats or other reasons that Trevor Hoffman was a better closer than Mariano Rivera, it would be a load of crap, because we know right now Rivera is probably best or second only to Eckersley. Not quite an even parallel, but you get the point.


The Bouj

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Holy crap! Who needs soap operas or a hollywood script? Rick Ankiel has become the ultimate walking-story ever! Next we'll find out he's a robot sent from the future meant to destroy human kind, but then he'll gain warm fuzzy feelings for us and spare us all. Wait..wait...I've heard of that before.
btw, I still love Ankiel. I just have that bittersweet feeling you have now, too, Will.


badead1

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @The Bouj: Lots of people are wrong lots of the time.

Context: I'm a Giants fan, but I'm no Bonds apologist; if anything, I fall into the "resigned to PEDs' presence" camp. I admit, the schaudenfreude (or however that word's spelled) tugs a bit at me, but I'm more disappointed than ever with sports fans right now, because I think I'm watching the group prove yet again that they don't recognize the power of the laundry, and that they're alternately vicious, incapable of true empathy, and blind. It's a sad day because the promising story took a nasty turn, not because said nasty turn is all that surprising. Deal with it. Move on. There will be different uniforms to cheer next year.

Rufus On Fire - David

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> How does anyone know, or how can anyone presume that Ankiel stopped taking HGH? It isn't tested for by MLB.

Also, it's interesting that he's been hitting the ball so well this season. Is it merely a coincidence that HGH has been known to improve eyesight?

donkeypuncher

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Also Rodney Harrison is a black man what? since when?

/sarcasm

Josh Beckett Indian Killer

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Nately: Been at a meeting so I am responding late, but I call Bullshit. Did you see the Costas Now report? The creator of the clear said in no uncertain terms that steroids help performance more than just adding mass. They help hand/eye coordination and focus.

The point is pretty much moot since nothing Ankiel did was illegal under baseball rules or federal law (not just that they weren't testing for it -- it was not illegal). Still, my point is, there is a difference to me between the guy that uses them while he is out with injury to get back to the point that he can play vs. the guy that uses them while he is playing so he can feel better and have a competitive advantage over that 300 other guys that aren't using them.

Rory B. Bellows

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> I'm genuinely sorry for Cards fans but much sorrier that I have no fucking idea whether I can trust any player or number in what has been, up until recently, my favorite avocation.

Philistine

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Cubs2234

Sanctimonious asshole much? (Forgive me, Ircane.)

Emppu

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Catalyst:

So some poor dwarf child didn't get his HGH because Ankiel ate it all?

ralphus

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Dr. Michael Mancini: No, I'm merely presenting anecdotal evidence presented by someone who knows more about this. I know people are quick to forget, but Bonds wasn't even considered the best player of his generation. That was Griffey. Once Junior went to CIN in 2000 and started getting hurt constantly (as opposed to just often), that title fell to A-Rod and Bonds.

My point is that Bonds wasn't ever considered The Greatest Player ever before the Cattle 'Roids. Not by anyone, not even Giants fans. He went from a Hall of Famer and one of the 3 or 4 best players of his era (Griffey, Bonds, A-Rod) before the Juice to superhuman after.

The Bouj

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Taking HGH for this purpose is just as wrong as using other performance enhancing drugs. Hell, it might even be worse. There are other people with legitimate medical conditions he is taking that away from. Sorry folks, you can't have it both ways.

Ankiel apologists and Bonds apologists should start a support group.

Catalyst

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Next up: Troy Glaus, C'mon down!!!!!!!!!!!!
According to SI, he received "multiple shipments of performance-enhancing steroids between 2003 and 2004 while recovering from a shoulder injury. Will there be as much outrage and name-calling over this report?

metalmaniac

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]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> ********************

Max Mercy

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> While I am glad that the writers of the column acknowledge their own double standard about their treatment of this story, I think that the acknowledgement that Ankiel's reasons for doing HGH are valid only serve to perpetuate the problem about the perceptions surrounding performance enhancing drugs.

The Tim Couch story earlier this week is quite similar to Ankiel's version you are telling right now. Tim Couch, having hurt his throwing shoulder needed to recover quickly by developing the muscle around his shoulder, which by normal rehab takes a very long time. Rodney Harrison, who hurt his groin a few seasons back when he was with the Chargers needed to do the same thing or else he would lose his job.

In a world where people only see HGH and steroids as performance enhancers instead of the much more gray and hard to define drugs that they are, the problem of perpetuating the view of people who take them as cheaters and not as athletes trying to make themselves healthy and better at their job is dismissed too readily. As Bill Simmons put it (and I don't like quoting him), if you had the chance to do your job better, would you not take that opportunity. In high school, we all knew kids that could afford to take SAT prep classes to get better scores on the SAT when other kids didn't. Do we call them cheaters? No, because we all accept the fact that as a person, you have to do what you can do to get better at whatever it is you think is important. Why is it such a big deal with athletes? Is athletics about celebrating the few who God made genetically better suited to throw far and run fast, and sustain injury - or is it about allowing everyone who is willing to put the time, effort, and sacrifice to be able to perform at the peak of human performance be able to succed at that desire?

morrisalmondjoy

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> "steroids are like doing heroin, while HGH is more like smoking weed"


ummm. quit defending your boy. he did something terribly wrong, and he deserves to pay the price for it.

cubs2234

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Charlie Weis and his buffalo wings: Also, Rodney Harrison is a black man.

rocky_road

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> What has Rick Ankiel ever done to merit such a well-written piece?

Dewey Decimal System

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Will, well written piece. Sums up my thoughts almost perfectly. It will be interesting to see how the local and national media run with this in the next few days and how Ankiel responds.

Personally, I hope he comes out and apologizes, says it was a mistake of his youth and is done with it. Of course, that is me clinging to my "hope".

For all other comparing this to Bonds, it is the same and it's not. I think Ankiel is a lighter shade of grey, myself.

Kramer's Junior Mint

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Von Hayes: How is the fact that it is against the law not relevant? I have never understood that argument. He took a drug that allowed him to work out for freakishly long periods of time with almost no recovery. That's not an advantage? You can use that argument it you want but then you have to accept anabolic steroid use as legitmate as well.

I never said it wasn't relevant. In fact, I said that if this story is true, Ankiel's HGH use was certainly disappointing. I just couldn't (and still can't) understand how you figure it was cheating. I've always been under the impression that you had to break the rules to cheat. And not just any set of rules (or laws,) but the actual rules of the sport you are playing. I agree that PED use is bad, and was bad in 2004, but I don't think his using a (doctor-prescribed) substance that was not banned by the league constitutes "cheating."

Barry Lutz

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> That was well written. I would believe the same words apply to Rodney Harrison who like Ankiel took it to recover and return from a devastating injury. The only difference is that when Ankiel supposedly took the HGH it wasnt a banned substance by MLB.

Josh Beckett Indian Killer

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @phillas: Elvis had a prescription for all those drugs he was on, but nobody said that Dr. Nick should have been prescribing them.

josereyes.theroof wishes to perform Tim Harris's sack-dance for you

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @CardinalRedOctober: Exactly. I'm a Royals fan* and I'm still behind Ankiel here.

*Yes, they still exist.

1980 David Bowie From The Music Video Ashes To Ashes

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @StuScott Booyahs: Agreed. It wasn't against the rules of baseball until very recently (long after the other major sports); if players want to use a substance to recover more quickly so they can work out some more, I'm all for it. I'm not against any player wanting to work hard to increase his production; after all, I'm paying his salary.

TimeoutWebber

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @The Bouj: You're seriously using the All-Century Team as the basis for an arguement? The one with Mark McGwire as one of the two best first basemen of the century?

Dr. Michael Mancini

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Honestly, I don't give a damn about steroids.

There, I said it.

StuScott Booyahs

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @LilJerrySeinfeld: I still blame Dusty Baker, & Jim Leyland. La Russa had nothing to do with it.

Hell, Art Howe is more culpable, & he had no say, about anything, in OAK after he replaced Tony.

josereyes.theroof wishes to perform Tim Harris's sack-dance for you

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @preciousroy:
I was going to make the same joke about Ankiel sleeping under my bed.


Dan-tastic

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Sorry, Will. That sucks.

umlaut75

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Magnakai Haaskivi:
if he has a prescription from a physician for non-FDA-approved uses, aka off-label use (which can be done), then he he could still be in the clear.
i'm not a lawyer (thank God), just a scientist, so legalities are not my realm.



phillas

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> If you're gonna savage Bonds on this, you can't let Ankiel off the hook because of the storyline, how much we all love the narrative (and we did). Let's see how all the usual papers react, see if they call for Ankiel's head the way they have Bonds' for years.

Somehow I doubt they will.

Signal to Noise

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Also, Will, I know you can't help it, but the self-congratulation of Cardinal fans is ridiculous. "...we would wait for him in a way we couldn't see other fan bases doing"? Your archrivals do the exact same thing, year after year, with Kerry Wood.

Shawon-O-Meter

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Nately:
It's always going to come back to Bonds, whether we like it or not; it's a fact of life. He is the poster boy(fairly or unfairly) for everything that has been wrong with MLB over the last twenty years, and his name will always be brought up by fans of other teams when one of their own is accused of the same things as Bonds.
I'm an oddity when it comes to being a fan of the Cardinals; I'm not blindly loyal; I'm a fan, but I'm also a realist. I can step back and take a look at the big picture without a jaundiced eye, because I've been following baseball(and other sports) for 50+ years, and there's very little that I haven't seen happen.

metalmaniac

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @phillas: So whatever he was doing with the HGH, he's not supposed to be doing. Got it.

Magnakai Haaskivi

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Hey, at least the guy involved is someone who can handle the pressure of reporters grilling him day after day for the rest of the season. Waaaaaiit....

Shawon-O-Meter

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Moral Relativism: It's Not Just For Giants Fans Anymore!

@HIV 2 Elway: Costas already shredded the whole notion that Bonds was even in the discussion for Greatest Player Ever prior to 1999 (when the alleged cattle juicing started) when Costas pointed out that Bonds didn't even make the All-Century Team (Costas was on the selection committee and said Bonds wasn't even really considered). So if Bonds' greatness really exploded after his head did too, then you probably see where I'm going with this.

But let's not talk about Bonds, let's pile on Ankiel and Cards fans!

The Bouj

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Watching you guys go back and forth is awesome...it's like everyone wants to give Will a reason to live.

Glossina Glossinidae

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Great post. That's why no good sportswriters are Yankee fans. They don't know suffering, which always produces the best writing - this side of Wild Turkey and cocaine, of course.

Crookednose

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Magnakai Haaskivi:
growth hormone is made in the pituitary gland.
the hormone works in the liver by stimulating liver cells to release a growth factor. this growth factor, in turn, promotes bone growth.
humans can't take any other species' growth hormone (cow or horse, for example), so human growth hormone is needed.
originally, human growth hormone from cadavers was tested, but caused problems (death in some patients). now recombinant human growth hormone is used.
the FDA currently approves 3 uses for human growth hormone. (1) children with short stature (growth hormone deficiency in childhood), (2) effects from pituitary tumors, and (3) treatment for HIV/AIDS - related wasting.

hope this helps.






phillas

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> How is the fact that it is against the law not relevant? I have never understood that argument. He took a drug that allowed him to work out for freakishly long periods of time with almost no recovery. That's not an advantage? You can use that argument it you want but then you have to accept anabolic steroid use as legitmate as well.

Von Hayes

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Just another ballplayer from the Tony LaRussa steroid mold.

LilJerrySeinfeld

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> So, is a hitter who got laser eye surgery cheating? He wasn't born with those eyes. How about the pitcher that gets Tommy John's and comes back throwing harder? That tendon was never meant to be in that elbow. Why do surgical enhancements not count as cheating but chemically derived ones do? I guess it's because drugs are bad ummkay.

ralphus

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Von Hayes: OK, so assume he broke the law. How is that cheating?

Barry Lutz

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Barry Lutz: He broke the law. I'm assuimg he had no legitimate medical reason to be taking HGH. It gave him an unfair advantage in his recovery.

Von Hayes

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Von Hayes: I don't disagree that Ankiel's HGH use in 2005 is disappointing, but I really don't think it is accurate to say he cheated. What rule did he break? Ankiel is not to be lauded for this, certainly, but I don't think MLB is entirely blameless either. They created this environment by burying their head in the sand and dicking around on the PEDs issue until public opinion (and Congress) essentially forced them to do something about it.

Barry Lutz

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Pacman Jonez: & his drugs-use was performane deteriorating. Plus, he didn't have a three-years stint in the minors to get his head back 'round to playing ball.

So, you, Pacman Jonez, make it two votes for Crackhead. Airhead still leads on this blog, though.

josereyes.theroof wishes to perform Tim Harris's sack-dance for you

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> From the Daily News:

"Unlike most drugs, federal law bans the use of HGH for off-label purposes: Physicians can distribute growth hormone only in connection with either treatment of a disease or another medical condition authorized by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. "You need a bona fide doctor-patient relationship and a bona fide disease to distribute growth hormone," Wadler said.

The list of possible uses of HGH by a healthy man in his mid-20s is "extremely narrow," Wadler added."


So presumably, if Ankiel has one of these legitimate medical conditions, we'll hear about it. Is recovering from injury one of these? I don't know. But it seems to me the line between recovering from injury and improving performance is pretty nebulous.


econdave

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Jackfruit: I'll take a rookie hiting 25 a year from the get go any day.


HIV 2 Elway

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @UkraineNotWeak: The NY Daily News has been on reporting on all aspects of the many steroids/HGH scandals in sports for the past few years. They were the first to report the story on the WWE wrestlers/Albany DA investigation.

cameltrader

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @HIV 2 Elway: Oh, you mean mashing like the 25 a year he averaged to start his career?

Jackfruit

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> To blame anyone other than Ankiel for this (The Daily News, Bud Selig, Barry Bonds) is ridiculous. I don't care whether it helped him heal. I don't care whether it "wasn't banned at the time." Was there any legitimate reason for him to have a prescripton for HGH? No. He cheated

Von Hayes

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> I'm not saying that the paper had it in for Ankiel or wanted to bring him down or anything, but it's naive to think that editors don't think long and hard about how to maximize readership. That said, I have no idea whether that's the case here or not, and kind of don't care.

Larry Bird Flu

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @rocky_road: Please forget Guillermo Mota, and please tell Willie Randolph to forget him as well.

crazyjoedavola

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Carmen McFanzone: @crazyjoedavola: Dempster as a closer makes me sadder.


By the way, when people ask me why I love Obama so much, I tell them b/c he has no real track record, I don't have to worry about a bunch of crazy shit coming out about him. I just want to believe in something again.


J-No

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Baudolino: Don't forget Guillermo Mota.

rocky_road

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> So a NY paper which is busy covering its' owntwo teams which are involved in pennant races, two football teams getting ready for the season and the US Open in its' town was just lying in wake for that perfect moment to spring the Ankiel story because NYers only care about Ankiel?

UkraineNotWeak

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Due to the fact that I have no medical education, can someone tell me what HGH is and is not supposed to be used for? If there's a valid treatment procedure for injury recovery that uses HGH, that seems okay. We don't let athletes take steroids, but if they're asthmatic it's alright; this seems to fall into that area, not just for Ankiel but for most athletes trying to recover.

If it's not a valid treatment to speed injury recovery, though, than it's a moot point.

Magnakai Haaskivi

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Nately: It'll be even better to hear them using the "dogs possess a very low level of consciousness" line when it turns out Ankiel ran a huge St Louis dogfighting ring.

rocky_road

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Seriously, you don't sit on something that's going to generate this much talk. You don't risk another paper or other media outlet stealing your scoop just to wait for the perfect moment to sensationalize it. The timing with Ankiel's performance last night is pure coincidence. Nothing else.


preciousroy

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Don't worry, the Cubs still lost.

thefess

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Who the fuck is Rick Ankiel?

Seriously though, I only hate steroids because Barry Bonds took them, the same way Angelina became unfuckable after Billy Bob fucked her. People really dont care.

Wormfather

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Larry Bird Flu: Please oh please dont tell me your blaming the media for this. They couldnt have held this too long, for fear of losing the exclusive.
@J-No: this makes me sad too. Seems likes sports has just become a machine for creating bad news.


crazyjoedavola

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @J-No:

So does Andre Ethier, but that's another thread.

Carmen McFanzone

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Carmen McFanzone: We will know he is guilty if he has to use a Spanish/english interpreter.

By the way, this makes me sad.

J-No

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Damn you Robert Duvall and your tell all story.

RedDear

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @PeteJäyhawk™:

He was going to touch the third rail.

TheCardCheat

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @UkraineNotWeak: I honestly find it hard to believe that they "broke" the story the day after he has 2 HRs and 7 rbis. However, that is not the point and I don't really care that much.

Lady Andrea

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> For all those that keep arguing that the Daily News was "saving" the story for today... generally, when a story comes out on Friday, it's because the paper wants to get it out, but doesn't want it to stay around in the news too long (because it'll be forgotten by the weekend).

Also, my favorite part about that Daily News article was that they listed all the suspected steroid takers ever, and by what source: apparently, in his book, Jose Canseco even ratted out his own brother. That cracks me up....

BTW, defending Ankiel and still persecuting Bonds is pretty hypocritical people....

stopmikelupica

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Nately:

ding ding ding ding. we have a winner.

Glossina Glossinidae

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @UkraineNotWeak: Because it's the heat of the wild card chase, NYC is a fan full of sports fanatics that will read anything written about sports and put in front of them, and they're a NYC tabloid that's losing circulation to the Post. Anything to drive traffic.

Larry Bird Flu

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lizalicious:

Why would a NY paper sit on a story regarding a St. Louis ballplayer?

UkraineNotWeak

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Nately: Sports fans don't care about little things like the truth about steroids. It gets in the way of the rage.

Oh, uh....dick joke.

White Speed Receiver

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Charlie Kerfelds Jetsons Tee: or "HearGHt" if you will.

MerryLander

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Rick Ankiel is not here to talk about the past.

Carmen McFanzone

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @rocky_road: Well, heart and HGH.

Charlie Kerfelds Jetsons Tee

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lady Andrea: I can assure you with 100 percent certainty that they did not sit on this story.

Lizabelle

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Meh, the Josh Hamilton story is better anyway. And he's got sicker tats.

Packman

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lady Andrea: Honestly... I don't even need an HGH test. If Ankiel comes out and says "it's something I did a little bit 3 years ago. It was a mistake, but I haven't done it since HGH was banned from baseball". That's good enough for me.

CardinalRedOctober

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> They said he would never pitch again. But the next season, he was back. He had one leg...but he had something more important.

He had heart.

rocky_road

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Zach Everson: Ty Cobb was juicing on pure, uncut rage.

Avoid the Clap, Jimmy Dugan

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lady Andrea: Cant test for it, thats the bigger problem with HGH. This is the only way you can get caught. I say enough is enough, make it all legal and lets see how crazy the numbers get.

crazyjoedavola

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Rory B. Bellows: That's what steroids are. They help you "recover" from workouts so that you can workout more often. They don't magically make you hit more home runs. I see know no difference between that and a cortisone shot, which has been a standard MLB treatment for decades.

I have no problem with Ankiel or what he did, I just love seeing all the Bonds haters try to make excuses for him that they would have never tolerated from Barry.

Nately

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Hey maybe he just used it to get his dong up like Wade Wilson.

HugsFromHarold

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Do you guys think Rick Ankiel should use the "Wide Stance" defense?

Portugal_The_Man

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> At least tWWL didn't fuck up the story too bad...

12-Inch Idongivafuck Sandwich

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lady Andrea: No can do. You can not accurately test for HGH. What needs to happen is the Cardinals can not stonewall this like they do everything else, Rick Ankiel needs to sit down in front of the media today and explain himself. That is the best thing that could happen.

Portugal_The_Man

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> not = no

preciousroy

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lizalicious: I have similar feelings about Mike Sweeney an obvious juicer in '03 and '04. I'd like to see him swallow his born-again Christian pride and really admit to doing something wrong.

HIV 2 Elway

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Props to you WIll for staying innocent for so long. Until Bud Selig and company start testing for steroids like they test for uniform violations, there's no choice but to assume all baseball players are junkies. (I popped my they're-all-cheaters cherry when Nomar bared his raging breasts on the cover of SI and promptly broke down.)

As for everyone remembering Ankiel's transgression more than Harrison's, they should. Football is a team game and one that thrives on the present; if Harrision is junked up, no big deal--they all are (and, clearly, they all are--those neck's ain't natural).

Ankiel isn't just competing about the present-day NL. Baseball thrives on its history. Sure, he's competing against a junked-up Bonds and Sosa, but he's competing against clean Clemente and Cobb.

Zach Everson

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lady Andrea: There is not test for HGH.

preciousroy

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Today sucks. I wake up with the worst hangover I've had since undergrad and I see this? I agree with someone upthread, the paper was obviously sitting on this for when Ankiel had a huge night at the plate. I say test him now, see if he's clean and if he is, let it drop.

Lady Andrea

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Rick Ankiel was only fronting for Rush Limbaugh. It's Rush's HGH.

UkraineNotWeak

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> I just hope no one Harry Caray's over this.

Yellow Tail Swine

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @CardinalRedOctober: Bring the ax.

TastesLikeBurning

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Stev D: +1

CardinalRedOctober

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @HIV 2 Elway: Nothing would make me happier in this lovely universe of ours than finding out that Roger McTaintlicker was a juicer.

Lizabelle

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> The quality of the discussions on this site always seem to be under scrutiny, but I've felt for a looong time now that these posts bring out the best analysis, debate, (wait, wait!) and jokes on the subject anywhere. Better a large number of y'all discussing this than bloviating pros any damn day.

The NFL - Harrison plays for my least favorite team, while one of my team's docs recently bought $150K of PEDs on his own dime. The team I hate kept beating my team year after goddamn year... that made me feel sicker than now knowing about what very well may be a chemical arms race element to the rivalry. Take it away, and I still can't fucking stand the Patriots.

Superbad, the Hold Steady, penis humor.

ClownForPound

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Baudolino: Huge guns do help one break down game film.

HIV 2 Elway

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @HIV 2 Elway: Uh...you forgot Wade Wilson. Cheating bastard.

Baudolino

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @TheVaingloriousKeithOlbermann: You have a lot of black and white in your wardrobe, dont you?

Prada James

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lizalicious: Fair enough, admitting guilt is admirable.

HIV 2 Elway

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> The story was broke by one Bess Marvin: Girl Cub Reporter

Stev D

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Performance enhancing drugs=bad. I don't care if it turns out that (please God no) David Ortiz used HGH at one point, I'll still feel the same way.

However, how an althlete reacts to getting caught (ie Bonds vs. someone like Harrison) also determines a great deal MY personal feelings on it. That is all.

Lizabelle

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Glossina Glossinidae:

What took you so long?

BigTenObsession

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Lizalicious: And driving drunk is illegal yet DUI attorneys have plenty of work. Do you really believe that Barry is the one and only guy juicing? That he is the 1 person in baseball and that Merriman and Harrison are the only two in football? That's some serious naivety. Barry hitting homeruns now shouldn't raise any more eyebrows than Clemens still pitching.

HIV 2 Elway

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @White Speed Receiver:

Will Leitch has $27,349.10 reasons to live.


(full disclosure: I have no idea how much Will really makes)


BigTenObsession

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Not for nothing, and after this I'm quietly stepping out of this whole topic, but if Ankiel played for the Diamondbacks? We'd be hanging him from a flagpole right now.

Reasonable Doubt for a Reasonable Price

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Chad Sexington: Youch. Well done.

Charlie Kerfelds Jetsons Tee

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Funny. I had a dream last night where I was in the DHARMA Swan hatch. Only it was decked out in Cardinal gear. Yemi came to me and said "Will has lost his way", and said that I must help him.

CardinalRedOctober

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> haha

Glossina Glossinidae

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Weed Against Speed: If Rick Ankiel ever accidentally shoots himself in face (allegedly), I never hope to learn if Will was sleeping with him.

Juancho

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Baudolino: I'll also add that I don't think it's right. Unfortunately though, that's just the way it is. Things will never be the same.

Baudolino

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> this was three years ago when it was "legal" in baseball to have HgH. Test him now...if he's positive get him out of here...if not, well he should be tested frequently and "watched" and continue to play the game the deserves to play in.

go cubs.

brendanm14

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @HIV 2 Elway:

Agreed. It's surprising how people will bend over backwards to make excuses for one while condemning the other.

Basshole

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @preciousroy: As long as you're consistent; we can agree to disagree. Until they are out of sports I just think the players I cheer for need to use whatever they can to stay competitive because lord knows the Royals aren't going to bring in top shelf talent.

HIV 2 Elway

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Shea Guevara:
Good point, I agree totally. Fans have to ask themselves what they want - superhuman performances? Or "sanctity" of the game?
That's why all this Tour de France stuff slays me. Why, all of a sudden, is a clean Tour is important?
Quotes from DECADES ago champs show how cavalier the cyclists were about drugs:
Jacques Anctil: "How do they expect us to cover this distance? On mineral water?"
Eddie Merckx: "You don't win the Tour de France by eating cheese sandwiches."

Cockeye Jones

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Avoid the Clap, Jimmy Dugan:

I think he was taking Pez instead of PEDs.

UkraineNotWeak

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Reasonable Doubt for a Reasonable Price: DINGERS!! DINGERS!!

Is Will going to be hiring Kim Etheridge today?

White Speed Receiver

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Stev D: Scott Radinsky would like a word with you.

Camp Tiger Claw

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Well written, Will. Its nice to read an honest opinion on a story before a certain Worldwide Leader in Hot Air gives their 2 cents.

McCroskey

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @UkraineNotWeak: Hell, Neifi Perez took PEDs, and it's not like it helped him any.

Avoid the Clap, Jimmy Dugan

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> From: Fearless Leader
Date: Sep. 7, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: do me a favore....
Body: call the police.
address: 1 Deadspin Way
tell them to go down the hall to the bathrooom.
im soo sorry <3

Chad Sexington

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @HIV 2 Elway: His peers are not. Performance enhancing drugs have been banned in professional sports. Did you get that memo?

Lizabelle

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Yeah... whatever. As Bernie points out, Ankiel received shipments of HGH [i]with a prescription[/i], and stopped after they were banned from baseball. This is a non-story. This is what bothers me about the whole PED issue... people are either cheaters or not. There's no distinction made between a guy who uses steroids for seven years or the guy who tries greenies a few times.

I predict that, after this story gets blown way out of proportion in the national media over the next day or two, Cards fans will rally around Ankiel a la Tony after his DUI.

CardinalRedOctober

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Shea Guevara:

They were far from as pure as the driven snow. Throughout the 60s and 70s, and I'm sure still today, players were taking "greenies" for the energy it gave them.

UkraineNotWeak

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @HIV 2 Elway: I don't think you'll find me defending Ankiel in any of my posts. As for the larger issue, we'll just remain on opposite sides of that fence.

I want clean athletes and I want better chemists working for the drug police of sports than for the cheaters. But I am a naive romantic.

preciousroy

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @HIV 2 Elway: I was kinda rooting for Barry's 756 to hit Hank Aaron in the head and kill him. Sanctimonious old jerk.

Stev D

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Weed Against Speed: White Bronco? or......a red miata blaring Wham!? I think the latter is more likely.

Portugal_The_Man

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Do you want to know the terrifying truth, or do you want to see him hit some dingers?

Reasonable Doubt for a Reasonable Price

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Big fucking deal. That's what I say. What he did was wrong, but we all know that those who did things wrong in baseball in the last 8-10 years are legion.

We should crucify the leadership of MLB, or no one.

Or we can just starting naming names: Pudge, Clemens, Boone, Luis Gonzalez, Brady Anderson, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire.

Baudolino

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @BigTenObsession: Are we going to see Will driving Ankiel on the freeway in a white Bronco next?

Weed Against Speed

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @preciousroy: @Lizalicious:
I don't care what he put in his body, the dudes still a badass. I am of the belief that, if the stuff is out there and can make you better, I want every damn Royal using it. We need all the help we can get.
I do find it amusing that everyone bashes Barry and then rushes to the defense of Ankiel. "He was only rehabbing" or "He only took it as a pitcher." Where is the consistency? As with Barry, its not about denial but rather acceptance. He is in an era where he and his peers (including those pitching to him) are pumping themselves full of chemicals and he's still the best.




HIV 2 Elway

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @chilltown:

The story is like 15 hours old. Give it some time - there still might be derision and contempt.

(Okay - probably not, but maybe.)

I think the Bonds juicing story lasted as long as it did because there was still some sort of ambiguity as to what Bonds actually did. That allowed the story to last. With Ankiel - it is still early, but I haven't heard anyone saying he didn't take them. And the home run chasing thing. Well, that and Barry wasn't friendly enough with reporters, so they keep telling everyone he is a jerk...

With the chase over - it seems like the Bonds story has gone away. People just needed an ending. Ankiels HGH story seems to have an ending. He took the HGH, stopped, came back a few years later, hit some dingers, and will now be considered a juicer by opposing fans here on out...

Im a people person. Who drinks.

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Cockeye Jones: I think people of our generation truly don't care (I'm gonna assume that the majority of Deadspin readers fall into the prized 18-35 demographic). I mean, we care when we can use it to taunt fans of other teams, and players on other teams when they come to "our" ballpark. But we all know that people are going to try to get an edge any way they can.

That's sports. That's life. We shrug, as long as getting an advantage over the opponent doesn't involve the use of a sniper rifle.

It's sanctimonious Mike Lupica-types who drone on about "the sanctity of the game" whenever a baseball/steroid story comes up. As if the baseball stars of yesteryear were as pure as the driven snow. They know the surest way to tug at the heartstrings of middle-aged readers is to tell them that their heroes were more righteous than the Rotten Modern Athlete.

shea_guevara

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> I won't get riled up about this, because like others have said there's a good chance that anyone of our favorite players could be implicated in something like this.

Matt_T

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Rick Chandler:

Will! Will! Is it true that you've chosen to stand by Rick Ankiel during this difficult time and provide him with comfort? Do you think that your association with him will now cause people to believe that you have also been using illegal substances?

BigTenObsession

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @allonthefield:

Wow. Just wow. So taking HgH when he was still serving as a pitcher makes it all ok because we ALL know that drugs designed to increase body size can only help those silly hitters. He must've been taking the drugs to help heal his body. And in Ankiel's case, he TOOK the drugs when he was a pitcher, so they must have obviously only targeted his arms and shoulders, two places that are NEVER a factor to a hitter, right?

There have been some very well-thought responses to this story. Then there have been those that serve only to justify the loving of one player and the hating of the other. Folks, you cannot have it both ways. Either Ankiel and Bonds both are the same kind of cheater or neither is.

TheVaingloriousKeithOlbermann

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Well, now I feel bad for making fun of the man-crush.

But really, Ankiel will get away with it because it's a great story, and people love great stories. The simpler, the better! Roy Hobbs! (Shit movie, by the way.) Whereas Bonds does not lend himself to any sort of inspirational narrative (ridiculously-talented ballplayer morphs into home run berserker because of petty jealousy), and thus it's okay to hate on him forever and ever and plus he's a douche. More important than the game of baseball is the story of baseball, and it's a tale that's been told in defiance of the actual truth of the game since its inception.

King of Pants

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Don't forget that this is all Bud Selig's fault. He encouraged the wild west attitude where many, many players injected many, many substances into their bodies because none of it was against the rules.

When there's no law, it's not a surprise when Al Swearengen sets up shop.

Dr. Michael Mancini

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @allonthefield: You "realized" it after Will told you? How insightful.

DeMeco Shall Inherit The Earth

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Ankiel took HGH to heal. Athletes take steroids (and HGH) to recover more quickly from the daily grind. Remember, taking steroids alone don't make you huge. They allow you to be able to get back in and work out sooner, without the usual downtime as your muscles recover (remember, when you work out, you are actually initially breaking down the muscle, then building it back up).

There really isn't much difference at all between Ankiel's situation and any roid head in the WWE/NFL/MLB, etc. It's all about recovery time.

HeavyPettingZoo

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Nately: I don't buy it. I think there is a difference between taking drugs to legitimately recover from injury vs. taking drugs when you are healthy solely to hit more home runs. Its the same reason that certain drugs are illegal without a doctor's prescription (morphine, etc.). Society recognizes that they have a place as medication, but it doesn't want recreational users.

That said, I am probably not the best spokesperson for that difference since I think all drugs should be legalized.

Rory B. Bellows

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Nately:

case closed

See? We can all get along.

BigTenObsession

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Shit, that was suposed to say: @HIV 2 Elway:

preciousroy

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> My name is Johninho, I play website developer, and baseball pretty much lost me at McGwire, but my favorite baseball player is Rick Ankiel.

Johninho

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @HIV 2 Elway: Did you read Game of Shadows? Or has Bonds personally told you when he started taking needles to the bum?

Lizabelle

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> I echo everyons's plaudits on the post.

I think the Natural comparison is still apt, however, at least the Malamud version. I guess the film was how Cards fans felt last night and the book is how they feel today.

Also, serves me right for picking up the stupid Post this morning.

thetaxman

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Shea Guevara: The Cardinals Sunday alternate could be FSU hoodies and their batting gloves could have a big X on them

Stev D

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Never hit 50 before age 37, then at an age where most people's skill's start diminishing, he goes on a power explosion hits that defies an entire century's worth of baseball stats.

As for hand eye coordination... yeah he could already hit a baseball. But when you are so massive, you don't need the same 'violent' home run swing that most mashers have (most prolific home run hitters also have higher strike out rates because it's harder to stay compact through the zone when you are trying to generate that much power, ergo more Ks). So the sheer muscular strength augments what was already a pretty sweet swing.

Or do you really want to continue with an argument that denies HE INJECTED COW HORMONES INTO HIS ASS?

preciousroy

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Please, no questions for Mr. Leitch! (ushers Will into waiting limo)

Rick Chandler

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> So the guy used a substance that wasn't banned at the time to get himself back in the game? As long as he stopped by the time it was officially banned... I don't see how this is a big deal.

And yes, I have Ankiel on my fantasy baseball team, why do you ask?

touch the cornballer

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> Call me morbid, call me pale
I've spent six years on your trail
six wholes years of my life chasing your tail
And if you have five seconds to spare
Then I'll tell you the story of my life

Sixteen, clumsy and shy
I went to London and died
I booked myself in at the Y...
WCA...
I said I like it here, can I stay
I like it here, can I stay
Do you have a vacancy for a backscrubber


BTW, bench Ankiel. They have to.












CliffX

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> This has me very torn.

StartingAces

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> /on a serious note
I don't understand this steroid-witchunt thing. Does anyone truly care what ghastly chemicals these guys want to put into themselves? Hit the dingers and we will love you. Reading Will's piece instantly allowed me to understand how people in San Francisco could keep loving Bonds through all this. Because really, who gives a ####?

/back to the hilarty, by which I mean old pop culture references.

Cockeye Jones

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]> @Stev D: I had a very short list of stuff I thought I'd never see referenced on Deadspin, and now I have to cross Victory Records off that list.

If only baseball players could be as pure and pious as Earth Crisis.

shea_guevara

]]> <![CDATA[What We Lost, And What We Never Had]]>