I'm a Pats fan, and I respect them less than I did three days ago, too. I still love the team, but I'd hate to find out they've been doing this, and profiting from it, for a while now. We all want our favorite teams to do well, but I think most of us want their success to be well-earned.

And especially in a year where they're well-suited to go a long way. This was such a stupid thing, regardless of what the NFL does, I hope the organization makes sure to put an end to this kind of thing.

KurticusMaximus

Fathead

his whole career/reputation is now built on this "tainted" legacy.

his head coaching gig was entirely due to the patriots winning superbowls. now, IF (i don't belive this) the patriots are tainted, so is he. so is Weis. so is Crennel. they were "cheating"...

mangini is blowing the whistle on himself.

supermike4ever

Jay-C

supermike4ever

A Pimp Named DaveR

Celerino Sanchez

supermike4ever

Because I told Pro Fotball Weekly that Jim Mora was yelling at E.G. Green in practice.

True story ...

Kelly Leak

Yep. So logically, to move from lines written by Thompson but not said by him to lines said by Thompson but not written by him, this means we'll get:
"This business will get out of control, it will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it."

Yostal

Because I told Pro Football Weekly that Jim Mora was yelling at E.G. Green.

True story ...

Kelly Leak

Jubilation T. Cornpone

Former Notre Dame assistant Pete Cordelli of Memphis, now an analyst for the Ole Miss football and basketball broadcasts, said he was on the Irish staff under Lou Holtz when the school discovered someone posing as a priest was watching daily practice.

"The guy was a gambler gathering information," Cordelli said. "He said he was a priest on campus who was one of the dorm rectors, and there was no reason not to believe him. He wore the collar and everything.

"Every time he saw one of our players on campus, he'd ask them about who was hurt, who was going to play. He was getting injury information.

"Finally, when the FBI noticed the betting lines were moving on Notre Dame, they called Lou. He went through all the lists of visitors at practice - he was the only one who approved visitors - and finally figured out it was this fake priest. Then, the fake priest just suddenly disappeared."

Kelly Leak

Let's bring up something that hasn't come up so far in this debate. The Broncos have achieved their recent running-game success through good talent spotting in OLs... and by using a crack-blocking scheme that puts defensive players at a significantly greater risk of knee injuries. The league identified that, and outlawed the crack blocks that the Broncos commonly used. The Broncs have modified their blocking scheme... somewhat. They still crack-block, they just do it in a way that just barely avoids meeting the NFL definition. Often they don't just barely avoid it, and are flagged for it.

So what should the league do about the Broncos? They're doing something that's clearly illegal, they're doing it intentionally, and they're gaining an on-field advantage by doing so. Should they be forced to forfeit games as well, because the actual penalty -- flags -- is insufficient to protect the integrity of the game?

A Pimp Named DaveR

supermike4ever

Celerino Sanchez

Yeah, I'm still bitter.

ithacabaron

all the teams that have fallen for the "who's that dude taping us from our own sideline" and not doing anything about it - they look silly.

all the teams that get trounced by the pats on the way to their undefeated season this year - when they whine about camcorder-guy, they will look silly.

randy moss makes 3 jets look silly on one play. hobbs makes 11 look silly for 108 yards.

supermike4ever

A Pimp Named DaveR

I'd wager to say that most if not all teams do something along the lines of this (at least at home), maybe not to the level of using a camera.

StartingAces

So how exactly is what the Patriots did any worse?

ASox

Celerino Sanchez

metalmaniac

again i blame this on the Giants.

goldplated_j

KurticusMaximus

A Pimp Named DaveR

goldplated_j

goldplated_j

A Pimp Named DaveR

Anyway, my point remains, using a camera was a stupid way to go about figuring out the signals.

KurticusMaximus

Let's just hypothetically say the Patriots have done this in the past. Videotape signals, match them with the overhead shots QB's get after every play, and figure out a FEW defensive plays for the second half.

Now if your Offensive Coordinator(Why won't Charlie Weiss talk about this?) knows the signals, and he can see the way a defense is set. He can signal which audible he wants Brady to call for that defense.

Thats as simple as it has to be.

goldplated_j

It is NOT easy to synch up two separate tapes UNLESS, like a network broadcast, all of the feeds from all of the cameras are going into one mixing board, then to VTR. In that case, it's the board that puts the stamp on, not the camera.

So sorry, but your timestamp argument doesn't work. It's not a matter of seconds to synch up a sideline tape to the network feed and/or the official game film. It takes a lot of trial and error.

@Jubilation T. Cornpone: I'm not comparing it to the apparel rule; I'm using the apparel rule as an example of the punishment fitting the crime. I agree with you that the potential for unfairness is a justification for the rule. But punishment should be based on the actual unfairness. So, @PenskeMate...:, yes, I would say that in the absence of a bright-line rule regarding penalties (which is really how it should be), then the penalty imposed on Brady's rocket boots should be commensurate to the harm suffered. Hell, there's ALREADY a rule exactly like that in place, on the field -- pass interference!!!

A Pimp Named DaveR

everyone knows a catchers signals, 1-fastball, 2=curve, 4=changeup(2,3 fingers could change depending on a pitchers repertoire). And the only way to get an advantage is having someone on second base to instantaneously relay the signal to the batter. Which is the reason why when someone is on second base the catcher goes to a secondary set of signs.

A defensive coach doesn't just stick up one to four fingers for his plays. and he doesn't change up his signs within a game because it would confuse his defense(although if he knew the patriots were keeping tabs on him he might change them up). All football plays are set plays, so once you have the signals you know whats coming.

The Baseball to Football signal comparison holds no water.

goldplated_j

hi_im_the_rog

My point is, this was a really stupid move on the Patriots part, because I don't really think it would have given them much of an advantage, especially considering the legal alternatives.

It would be like a baseball team sending the first base coach out with a camcorder to record the catcher's signals. Sure, that might be useful, but you could get the same result by just telling the first base coach to try to figure out a sign or two on his own. Which, I'd imagine, every first base coach ever has tried to do.

Sure, the Pats might have been doing this for that game, but it seems like the long way to go about it, when you can just give a guy a microphone and say "ok, tell us what the defensive coordinator is doing." Same result, and it's legal.

Which is all the more reason why this was such a bonehead move. It calls into question all of the Pats accomplishments, for very little return as far as I can tell. Just a stupid, stupid thing to do.

KurticusMaximus

What?

Chamomiles Davis

hi_im_the_rog

I don't doubt that they should be punished though.

hi_im_the_rog

supermike4ever

BoeheimIsMySavior

There is this incredible technology called TIMESTAMPS. now take a ride with me.

If a photo has a time stamp, and a Video has a timestamp, and both are used to record the same event from different angles it takes only seconds to sync the images, unlike humans taking mental notes.

In a matter of minutes, one person could figure out the defensive plays of a team for a whole half. I don't know how many defensive plays are used throughout the course of a game, but i'll assume 15-20, because some are reused. so now in the second half you recognize 4 plays, and 2 lead to touchdowns. How do you seperate great player/coach from huge competitive advantage?

goldplated_j

claude balls

supermike4ever

Chief Wahoo

except the bills. they haven't figured it out yet.

supermike4ever

Sure, they could have recorded the hand signals, sent the tape up at halftime, asked a staffer to watch the game on fast forward and match up the signals to the plays, and send them back to the field in time for it to matter. Or, they could just be compiling footage for later study.

If all they wanted was this game, they could just have a guy watch the signals and call out his predictions over the mic. The only reason to tape it is for future use.

KurticusMaximus

supermike4ever

No but the video was given to the coaches or video assistant at some point, probably half time where they match the signals with the over head images and are able to tell which signals mean which coverage and where the blitzes are coming from and when. If you don't think that's helpful...

twoeightnine

Videotaping the signals (in combo with the radio thing) has the potential to affect the competition on a very real level. Whether it worked or not, it is the potential for unfairness that has to be held in check, protected like a babe in the woods from evil wolves like Belichick.

Jubilation T. Cornpone

hi_im_the_rog

xhack

That said, I hope nothing happens to the Pats until after the season is over. The Colts can - and will - crush them fair and square once again.

bsanders37

there's no way that a handheld videocamera was being broadcast up to the booth during the game.

hi_im_the_rog

if the patriots employed someone to stand on their own sideline and simply stare at the defense's coaches and radio up to the box, would it still cause such outrage? or is it just because it was videotaped?

Spying isn't illegal, videotaping is. It's against the rules so of course it's going to bring more outrage.

And a guy on the sidelines radioing up to the box is not going to be able to match tape of the signals to tape of the plays.

twoeightnine

PenskeMaterial

"Of course hes a spy-you just saw him go through spy school!"

acer

I started talking about this with a Pats friend of mine and in less than 5 minutes it degenerated into him talking about how much he hates the entire Manning family.

He got mad when I told him that this is why people outside of New England don't like Pats fans.

xhack

if the patriots employed someone to stand on their own sideline and simply stare at the defense's coaches and radio up to the box, would it still cause such outrage? or is it just because it was videotaped?

hi_im_the_rog

It helps them in THIS match-up, not the next. They were able to figure out the signals during the game and relay that information onto the field. And with the possibility of radio discrepancies there's the chance that multiple players were receiving the information or Brady (or others) were receiving information after the signal was supposed to be turned off.

twoeightnine

Regarding the obviousness of it, I'm not aware of all the details so this is only a hypothetical statement, but it's not like there's any shortage of people with cameras near a football field, between the TV crew and the photographers, so it may not have been as obvious as it seems at first that the guy was standing there. Especially if his association with the Patriots wasn't readily apparent (e.g., no obvious team logos or apparel). The sidelines seem like a pretty crazy place, so it might not be too surprising if something like that was missed.

Boy Howdy

supermike4ever

I find it pretty unbelievable that someone in the Pats organization didn't know this was against the rules.

PenskeMaterial

Also, I think its funny that people are using a "they would have won anyways" argument about a post that references Watergate. Nixon would have won the 72 election without it, but his paranoia got the better of him.

Dan-tastic

drewheyman

StuScott Booyahs

I suppose it would help the Patriots read the Jets signs in their next match-up, but I'd imagine every team in the league watches the other side for signs to try to do that. Granted, taping the signs takes it to another level, but it's the same basic principle.

This was obviously an incredibly bone-headed move on the Patriots part. There's no excuse, and they should be punished. A one-game suspension might even be called-for. But Owens-like calls for blood seem a bit overblown.

KurticusMaximus

Sheepblog

take what you will from that comment.

goldplated_j

@Everyone else: I'm not defending anyone here. But I think it's ridiculous to call for multiple draft pick penalties, or forfeiting games, or suspensions, until you demonstrate exactly how this transgression benefitted the team. Otherwise, you can't determine an appropriate penalty.

Up until Nolan pushed the issue, it was technically in violation of a known and stated NFL rule for a coach to wear non-approved apparel, i.e. a business suit, on the sideline during the game. Obviously, that's a transgression that didn't give the 49ers any sort of competitive advantage whatsoever. Therefore, it would have been patently ridiculous to suspend Nolan, or take away draft picks, for that violation, because the penalty would vastly outstrip the harm caused by the rule breach. The same applies here -- until we know how this actually benefitted the violating team, we can't determine a proper penalty.

A Pimp Named DaveR

supermike4ever

Babcocksure

supermike4ever

I doubt it will work.

Len Bias Cocaine Surplus

Dan-tastic

Moletran

Botswana Meat Commission FC

Take off your rose-tinted Belichick-vision goggles for a second.

The actual results on the field have no bearing on whether or not the commissioner finds they broke league rules. If they knowingly broke rules (especially if they did it repeatedly, which may be the case) then they definitely should be sanctioned.

If my Eagles were doing this and got caught, I wouldn't defend it with "well they're so good on the field anyway, it doesn't matter."

Botswana Meat Commission FC

Basically, I think the Patriots' punishment should be to forfeit Super Bowl 39. Nothing more, nothing less.

dmac

drewheyman

Belichick said in a statement, "Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players."

Apology NOT ACCEPTED

Taking draft picks away from a team is a weak punishment...This team is good right now, so punish them now! Suspend Belichick for at least one game!

Jay-C

Glossina Glossinidae

I'm not sure how great the effect was on the games, but at a time when people are particularly concerned about integrity in pro sports (given all of the doping issues in every sport and the gambling issue in the NBA), the NFL's premiere team was caught blatantly breaking the rules regarding fair play. Not just any team-- the best team, the team that, more than anything, is renowned for always being in the right place at the right time, for always outsmarting opponents, and for always being a step ahead of the other coaches. The possible benefits of the cheating play directly into the team's greatest (and most astounding) strengths-- this looks very bad.

TMC

Len Bias Cocaine Surplus

grayflannelsuit

supermike4ever

Gasface

hrbek cheated

FACT.

Len Bias Cocaine Surplus

the guy was standing on the opposing sideline with a huge camera on his shoulder. what do you think that means?

supermike4ever

Gasface

so, now that the patriots can't video tape the other coaches on the sidelines... all the other teams are going to totally beat up on them, starting with the chargers sunday night - right?

i mean, the pats will suck now that they don't have this HUGE advantage working for them?

this "cheating" is THE REASON they have won a game in the last six years?

supermike4ever

Mr. Poon

Rob Iracane

ASox

Arriaga_II

"the patriots are a good team" - this guy's onto something!

supermike4ever

Hit Bull Win Steak

StuScott Booyahs

*Somehow a check

UkraineNotWeak aka Praying for a Bullpen

UkraineNotWeak aka Praying for a Bullpen

Saldawg

When Mark Schlereth is the voice of reason and intelligence you know something is wrong.

twoeightnine

Barry Lutz

Maybe if you think before you post, you'd remember that debate from last season.

mlmintampa

Arriaga_II

That being said, leave them alone, Brady is my keeper qb.

ArtDonovansLovechild

Actually no. It wasn't the same thing. The Jets purchased video in which you could hear Brady's audibles. It was something available to all teams and not against league rules. The Pats on the other hand directly videotaped the opposing coaches which is against league rules, are the only ones who have access to that tape and used it that day in the game.

twoeightnine

Wilf

Lunatic Fringe

(What, are you Bob Ryans son ?)

It wasn't just the video taping of the signals but there was also an audio track on the tape so they could learn the lingo of the defense.

On the same token if the Yanks used cameras to steal the Sawx's signs you and all you other NE's would have a stroke and call for Torre to be skinned and banned for life.

The rule is clear and the Pats broke it. The punishment should NOT be taking away draft picks but suspension for Mr. Hoodie and a lagre fine (2 Mill or so.)

Lunatic Fringe

Wilf

StuScott Booyahs

econdave

Weed Against Speed

AngryJoeMagrane

I think supermike sent in that question. My worlds are colliding!

BigTenObsession

theslacker

Rodney Harrison gets suspended. At least do the same to the Coach.

Ok, time for NHL 08! Yippee!

blackaces

@Sandy Magic Jackson: I don't know, but this man needs his own show. I would buy a Slingbox just for him.

Jefferson Short Bus

Weed Against Speed

StuScott Booyahs

A Pimp Named DaveR

(1) How can you "steal" a sign that isn't hidden?

(2) during a game that is televised???

(3) and is filmed from the pressbox by both teams???

(4) in a league where teams are required to provide game films to their opponents prior to playing?

Again, it's a rule violation, period. And punishment should be meted. But I consider myself a sophisticated, knowledgable football fan, and I cannot see how this could possibly provide a real-time advantage to the team under these facts. If it's a live feed to the upstairs coach's box, maybe I can see how a smart team could use the info. But the Pats were videotaping openly-visible signals. The only advantage I can see is that you don't have to dedicate a coach to observing the signals, which would be perfectly legal!!!!

I don't see this as cheating, really -- it's using a technological shortcut to do something they could have done manually. But again, the rules are the rules, and if you get caught breaking them you should pay.

A Pimp Named DaveR

jwaves2007

On the Pats controversy. Fuck Belichick, the guy is a scumbag.

UpstateUnderdog

Hamster-Style

Now, because it's the Pat's that are accused of doing it, the same infraction is treated as the biggest story ever. Ridiculous.

ASox

(The beer *and* the committee.)

Tuffy

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Sh!tShow

Jankie

I'd make a joke about how they're the only ones but this is Kentucky. Their economy is based on chrome emblems.

And Belichick is a prick.

twoeightnine

Jefferson Short Bus

Sandy Magic Jackson

being_sven

Tuffy

Ladies love Fennis

bsanders37

[www.youtube.com]

His take begins 48 seconds in. I love Touchdown Tuesdays.

Jefferson Short Bus

[www.youtube.com]

Jankie

Nationalcoholic

theslacker

Wilf

MitchKayak

Camp Tiger Claw

StupidAngelos

Dan Daoust

StupidAngelos

So, you know, no one ever mentions it again and the Pats get a cool new Nike ad.

StupidAngelos

Have we heard from Kige on this yet?

Lady Andrea

Rob Iracane